Talk:Race (human categorization)

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This article appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page as Today's featured article on October 26, 2004.

Article milestones
Date	Process	Result
October 21, 2003	Brilliant prose	Nominated
August 13, 2006	Featured article review	Demoted

Current status: Former featured article

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The article Race (human categorization), along with other articles relating to the area of conflict (namely, the intersection of race/ethnicity and human abilities and behaviour, broadly construed), is currently subject to active arbitration remedies, described in a 2010 Arbitration Committee case where the articulated principles included:

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Pseudoscientific (?) categorization

In the newest revision of this page (5 July 2024) someone changed "categorization..." to "pseudoscientific categorization..." in the beginning of the article, without changing the rest of the definition or adding references. In my opinion, that is a big claim and should at least be cited, if not removed completely, especially because it's the first thing users see after opening the article. Without proper expansion of that claim, I think it does not belong to this article Wojtek703 (talk) 10:19, 7 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion, Pseudoscience should be in the very part of Wikipedia where this article is best ordered in. And the historical part can, of course, stay pretty much unaltered.

In Germany, we - by law - have no concept of race. IMHO people mean ethnicity or phenotype when they say race. Racism does exist, but german law dictates that it stems from pseudoscience, mixing a correlation (not causation) of genotype/phenotype with stereotypes. Back on topic: every single "source" and claim in here should be even stronger scrutinized. FeltFurHeartAndSoulfelt (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That is incorrect. German law states no such thing. 208.30.108.183 (talk) 18:35, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are both correct. In law (Grundgesetz), we have racism used as a term, and the term race was used in 1949, too. Which is obsolete.

https://www.antidiskriminierungsstelle.de/DE/ueber-diskriminierung/diskriminierungsmerkmale/ethnische-herkunft-rassismus/ethnische-herkunft-rassismus-node.html

For years now, that concept has been disproven, but the full text of Grundgesetz is still to be revised.

"Das AGG beinhaltet ein Verbot rassistischer Diskriminierung in Alltagsgeschäften sowie im Arbeitsleben. Der im AGG wie auch im Grundgesetz (GG) verwendete Begriff der „Rasse“ ist dabei hochumstritten. Die Antidiskriminierungsstelle des Bundes setzt sich dafür ein, diesen durch die Formulierung "rassistische Diskriminierung“ oder „rassistische Zuschreibung“ zu ersetzen." ~~ 92.116.129.16 (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Modern science regards...

OP blocked as a sock. — The Hand That Feeds You:^Bite 16:44, 14 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

"Modern science regards race as a social construct", in the opening section. This is weasel wording. You have three American sources for this statement. Later in the article international surveys show such an idea is common *only* in America. It's my understanding that American bias should be avoided, especially when claiming to speak for modern science. This sentence should be changed to reflect the lack of international consensus. Something like "The status of race as a biological or social construct continues to be debated." Raffelate (talk) 09:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. British guy here. And no. Just no. Race is socially constructed. Just ask anybody from any group who's perceived race depends on the context of who's asking and why. "Scientific" racism is pure pseudoscience. That's not just an American idea. That is the global consensus. By all means add another source that is not American if you like but we will not be bothsidesing racism with a statement like "The status of race as a biological or social construct continues to be debated". Those really would be weasel words which open the door to a spurious legitimisation of "scientific" racism. DanielRigal (talk) 12:09, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me but as I understand it Wikipedia is edited according to a range of published material, not your personal opinion. Raffelate (talk) 13:48, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It's not a personal opinion, it is the plain language of the cited sources. Wikipedia uses a range of published material, but that doesn't mean that it seeks a WP:FALSEBALANCE between the mainstream and the fringe. MrOllie (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Surveys in even America do not support the claim that it is remotely close to "fringe". The fact that the idea is entertained in academia, let alone held by significant numbers as shown in Ann Morning's survey, preclude such a claim. Please explain how you arrived at such an assessment. Raffelate (talk) 14:11, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly a quarter of the population believes in Astrology. Science isn't settled by opinion polling. MrOllie (talk) 14:14, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I am not claiming anything is settled, merely that both sides of the issue are held in academia. How else can we establish whether an idea is fringe other than by polling experts in the relevant discipline? How have you established this? I have asked you this question, please answer it. Raffelate (talk) 14:21, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

By following the best quality sources, which is what the article presently does. MrOllie (talk) 14:25, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

And what are the criteria for best quality? Perhaps merely cherry picking those that match the personal opinion of editors rather than surveying the field? This is a gross violation of policy. Raffelate (talk) 14:37, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If you can't discuss without throwing around aspersions I'm done here. MrOllie (talk) 14:45, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I simply asked a question. Is the answer no? If it is yes you should certainly be done here. Raffelate (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I reject the premise of the question. MrOllie (talk) 14:53, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

That you use "best sources" to write the article and it is unclear what this means? Raffelate (talk) 14:58, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

An aspersion thinly disguised as a question is still an aspersion. I will not respond to this thread any further. Feel free to take the last word if you require it. MrOllie (talk) 14:59, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

It would behoove you to address the policy issue rather than stonewalling based on the fact you "don't like my tone". Raffelate (talk) 06:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Rather than attribute to "modern science", we should just say "Race is a social construct ...". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 15:36, 9 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

So apparently we're at an impasse where editors here think their personal opinion trumps what is found in the range of academic sources. Of course this is the diametric opposite of Wikipedia policy. I will raise this issue at a noticeboard. Raffelate (talk) 06:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Please read WP:BOOMERANG before you do. --DanielRigal (talk) 14:19, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

You are implying the admins are also corrupt? Quite possibly. How very sad. I used edit Wikipedia twenty years ago and it wasn't like this at all. But still, it's worth a try. Raffelate (talk) 15:01, 10 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Do races even exist?

WP:NOTFORUM

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

The POV of this article (and articles which rely on it) is that "race" doesn't really exist. Skin color, shape of facial features, straightness or curliness of hair, don't really divide humans at all. We're just making it up: it's a social construct. I think this is an exaggeration, though well intentioned. I believe the purpose of this is to undermine the basis of racism, particularly racial supremacy. "We are better than you, because you race makes you inherently inferior."

While I applaud the effort to undermine racism (indeed, my mother and grandfather did a lot of civil rights work), the assertion that there are no inherited, readily apparent differences between large groups of people is simply one WP:POV even it has become mainstream in the English-speaking West.

We should rather describe the evidence and reasoning of those who wish to destroy the concept of race, instead of tacitly agreeing with them. There are five basic skin colors: black, brown, red, yellow, and white. Whether or not any people of a certain color look down on others with darker or lighter skin doesn't change the fact that people are born with skin color that is inherited from their parents (the theory is that there is a genetic cause for this).

People of a given race tend to have a similar culture, and perhaps this is the cause of the difficulty in writing objectively about it (or at least in the NPOV style). No one wants to admit that their culture is responsible for producing unfavorable social outcomes like poverty, ignorance, and crime. Since it can't be race -- because race doesn't even exist! -- it must be discrimination. Perhaps so, but Wikipedia should not endorse or espouse this view. It should inform our readers about it. Who believes it, and why? --Uncle Ed (talk) 14:03, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

This seems very much to be a WP:FORUM post as it doesn't discuss sources, etc. Doug Weller talk 14:10, 2 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]